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	<title>Comments on: On the importance of having adversaries</title>
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	<description>complacence is the enemy</description>
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		<title>By: complich8</title>
		<link>http://www.complich8.net/archives/200/comment-page-1#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>complich8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=200#comment-128</guid>
		<description>responding to Joel: 

I&#039;m trying to take a wider stance than just infosec.  Apply the same idea to philosophy or debate.  I make an argument with inherent flaws, you can tear down parts of my argument.  Your role as an adversary forces me to redesign, to answer the weaknesses inherent in the argument I make, and ultimately to stop making weak arguments.  Arguments on the existence of free will notwithstanding, a world without philosophical adversaries would be nightmarish oppression -- a revisitation of Orwell&#039;s 1984, only after the redesign of language was complete and thought opposed to &quot;correct&quot; thinking became linguistically impossible.

Strictly within the realm of computer security, you&#039;re right -- attackers make us waste our time defending, slow our communications, and generally give us a bad time.  But the adversarial relationship is fundamental to both science and philosophy.  Without the ability to take an adversarial role, we have no tools with which to check the validity of the things around us.

I would go so far as to say that the adversarial relationship is the fundamental basis of rational thought.

Finally, a system without adversaries will inevitably pick them up -- something the computer world learned from Ken Thompson, if nobody else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>responding to Joel: </p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to take a wider stance than just infosec.  Apply the same idea to philosophy or debate.  I make an argument with inherent flaws, you can tear down parts of my argument.  Your role as an adversary forces me to redesign, to answer the weaknesses inherent in the argument I make, and ultimately to stop making weak arguments.  Arguments on the existence of free will notwithstanding, a world without philosophical adversaries would be nightmarish oppression &#8212; a revisitation of Orwell&#8217;s 1984, only after the redesign of language was complete and thought opposed to &#8220;correct&#8221; thinking became linguistically impossible.</p>
<p>Strictly within the realm of computer security, you&#8217;re right &#8212; attackers make us waste our time defending, slow our communications, and generally give us a bad time.  But the adversarial relationship is fundamental to both science and philosophy.  Without the ability to take an adversarial role, we have no tools with which to check the validity of the things around us.</p>
<p>I would go so far as to say that the adversarial relationship is the fundamental basis of rational thought.</p>
<p>Finally, a system without adversaries will inevitably pick them up &#8212; something the computer world learned from Ken Thompson, if nobody else.</p>
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		<title>By: the Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.complich8.net/archives/200/comment-page-1#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>the Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=200#comment-127</guid>
		<description>Conflict theory works out well, since everything in nature uses it to advance.  Yes there are unfortunate consequences, but when dealing with economics, etc., one need not be completely domineering.  

Personally, I find Neitszche&#039;s philosophies worthwhile only when an entire system has endemic flaws and weaknesses.  Then does his concepts of completely overthrowing a system and letting creators make things make sense.  That&#039;s why I like a representative democracy, since typically anything that&#039;s truly a virus in the system is quickly killed off.  Typically anyway ...

*wanders off onto tangential thought*

Anyhoots.  Good read, archlich.  Whether it&#039;s gradual improvements or stark overthrows, adversaries are a good thing, on the whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conflict theory works out well, since everything in nature uses it to advance.  Yes there are unfortunate consequences, but when dealing with economics, etc., one need not be completely domineering.  </p>
<p>Personally, I find Neitszche&#8217;s philosophies worthwhile only when an entire system has endemic flaws and weaknesses.  Then does his concepts of completely overthrowing a system and letting creators make things make sense.  That&#8217;s why I like a representative democracy, since typically anything that&#8217;s truly a virus in the system is quickly killed off.  Typically anyway &#8230;</p>
<p>*wanders off onto tangential thought*</p>
<p>Anyhoots.  Good read, archlich.  Whether it&#8217;s gradual improvements or stark overthrows, adversaries are a good thing, on the whole.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.complich8.net/archives/200/comment-page-1#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blog/?p=200#comment-123</guid>
		<description>The types of flaws repaired in response to adversaries, however, only need repair because of the existence of adversaries.  Were there no adversaries whatsoever, the sort of flaws they exploit would be irrelevant.  In fact, corrections due to security often lessen performance (in the case of computing, encryption, passwords, DRM and security patching come to mind as unnecessary hindrances in an adversary-free universe).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The types of flaws repaired in response to adversaries, however, only need repair because of the existence of adversaries.  Were there no adversaries whatsoever, the sort of flaws they exploit would be irrelevant.  In fact, corrections due to security often lessen performance (in the case of computing, encryption, passwords, DRM and security patching come to mind as unnecessary hindrances in an adversary-free universe).</p>
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